Agenda, decisions and minutes

To receive any apologies for absence

Apologies were received from Councillors Anwen Davies, John Brynmor Hughes, Linda Morgan, John Pughe, John Pughe Roberts, Angela Russell, Einir Wyn Williams and Eirwyn Williams.

The Chair shall propose that the minutes of the previous meeting of the Council held on 4^th May, 2023 be signed as a true record.

The Chair signed the minutes of the previous meeting of the Council held on 4 May 2023 as a true record.

To receive any declarations of personal interest.

No declarations of personal interest were received.

To receive any Chair’s announcements.

Condolences were extended to the following:-

·           Councillor Angela Russell and family following the loss of her sister;

·           Councillor Gwynfor Owen and family following the loss of his father-in-law.

·           Dafydd Gibbard, the Chief Executive, and the family on the loss of his mother.

·           The family of Joshua Lloyd Roberts, 19 years old, who died in tragic circumstances in Caernarfon recently.

·           The family of Gareth Fôn Jones, Headteacher of Ysgol Dolbadarn, Llanberis (the son of the former Chair of this Council, former Councillor Eric M Jones), who died last week.  The Chief Executive paid tribute to him.

It was also noted that the Council wished to sympathise with everyone in the county’s communities who had recently lost loved ones.

The Council stood in silence as a mark of respect and remembrance.

The following were congratulated:-

·           Rachel Atherton from Dinas Mawddwy on her global success in the mountain biking field by winning the first round of the World Championships in Switzerland following a four-year hiatus because of an injury.

·         Everyone from Gwynedd who had been successful at this year's Urdd Eisteddfod in Llanymddyfri recently, particularly Gwydion Rhys from Rachub, the Main Composer, and Tegwen Bruce-Deans from Bangor, who won the Chair.

Best wishes were extended to the Llŷn ac Eifionydd National Eisteddfod which would be held in Boduan next month.

To note any items which are urgent business in the opinion of the Chair so they may be considered.

None to note.

(a)  To consider any questions from members of the public, the appropriate notice for which have been given under Section 4.17 of the Constitution.

Question by Mr Ieuan Wyn on behalf of Cylch yr Iaith (address provided in accordance with the requirements of the Constitution).

“Given that the Council's Education Department and the Cabinet have allowed a situation where –

-       children are immersed in the language immersion units for 20% less of the time than they were previously, due to cutting the time the children are at the units from five days a week to four;

-       staffing at the immersion units has been cut from two teachers to one;

-       immersion units are having to close at times due to staff absences and shortage of qualified supply teachers;

-       and, due to this reduction, limiting the capacity of immersion unit staff to go to the schools to provide guidance and support;

is it true to say that the Council's Education Department and Cabinet have been responsible for weakening the effectiveness of the immersion provision, and that the situation needs to be rectified?”

(b)  To consider any questions from elected members, the appropriate notice for which have been given under Section 4.18 of the Constitution.

(The Cabinet Members' written responses to the questions had been published in advance.)

(A)      A question from a Member of the public

          Question from Mr Ieuan Wyn (on behalf of Cylch yr Iaith) (address provided in accordance with the requirements of the Constitution)

"Given that the Council's Education Department and the Cabinet have permitted a situation where - 

·         children are immersed in the language immersion units for 20% less of the time than they were previously, due to cutting the time the children are at the units from five days a week to four;

·         cutting staff at the immersion units from two teachers to one;

·         immersion units having to close at times due to staff absences and a shortage of qualified supply teachers;

·         and this reduction also limiting the capacity of immersion unit staff to go to the schools to provide guidance and support,

is it true to say that the Council's Education Department and Cabinet have been responsible for weakening the quality and the effectiveness of the immersion provision, and that the situation needs to be rectified?"

Response from the Cabinet Member for Education, Councillor Beca Brown

"First of all, in response to the individual points, since this new vision for the immersion system became operational, teacher assessments note that children's attainment is consistent with the former system, and that they are receiving a service that is as good, if not better, than the previous system.  Also, the headteachers' comments note that children appreciate being able to maintain contact with their mother school, and I suspect that this system will make it easier to convince parents to send their children to the immersion centres.  Of course, we do not have the right to force any family to send their children there, and I believe that it is natural for parents to worry about a child losing contact with their peers, at a time, possibly, when the child has just moved to a new area and is trying to make friends. 

In terms of the staffing structure, the new system creates an opportunity to create one team that collaborates and is able to develop on an ongoing basis, and permanent contracts, of course, provide assurance and consistency.  No immersion unit has had to close because of the absence of lack of competent teachers.  The staff go to mainstream schools every week and they also spend periods at the end of each course providing support and after care to the children.

On a general point, our priority at all times is to place the child at the centre and at the heart of any plans to ensure that every child is in the best possible place to learn and acquire the Welsh language, something that all of us in this room wish to see I'm sure.  Also, it is worth nothing that a full team of Estyn inspectors have been inspecting the Authority last week and one of the things that they were specifically scrutinising was the field of Welsh, including  ...  view the full minutes text for item 6.

To submit the report of the Chair of the Standards Committee.

To accept the report.

Mr Eifion Jones, Chair of the Standards Committee, was welcomed to the meeting to present the committee's annual report for 2022/23.

The Chair noted that it had been a privilege for him to be elected as Chair of the Standards Committee in February this year, and that he wished to sincerely thank his predecessor in the Chair, Dr Einir Young, who had provided her service and guidance to the Committee over her 10-year period as a member.

When submitting the report, the Chair drew attention to the new statutory duty on the leaders of political groups and thanked the three Leaders for their collaboration on the initial steps that had been taken to deal with the duty.  He emphasised the importance of keeping a close relationship between the Leaders and the Monitoring Officer, noting that the full Standards Committee would arrange a meeting with the Leaders in the near future.

The Leader of the Council thanked the Chair of the Standards Committee for his work during the year.

Members were given an opportunity to make observations and ask questions. 

It was asked how the senior officers of the Council, such as the Monitoring Officer, were moderated.  In response, it was noted that:

·         The role of the Standards Committee was to look at public conduct and the way elected members behaved as a part of their work.

·         That there was a Members' Code of Conduct and an Officers' Code of Conduct, and that everyone adhered to this to the best of their abilities, at all times.

·         That there was a completely separate performance management procedure for matters relating to officer performance in respect of their work, and that this was a completely separate matter to the remit of the Standards Committee.

·         That the role of Monitoring Officer was a statutory role and that the post holder was accountable and responsible for this function to the Full Council.  Should any party wish to lodge a complaint against the Monitoring Officer, they would be required to raise the matter with the Chief Executive.

RESOLVED to accept the report.

To submit the report of the Statutory Director of Social Services.

To accept the report.

The Statutory Director of Social Services presented his annual report regarding the performance of the Social Services in Gwynedd during the 2022/23 year.

The Director thanked his predecessor in the post, Morwena Edwards, for her thorough work before her departure in summer 2022, and to Lois Owens (Senior Executive Officer) for her assistance in preparing the report.

Members were given an opportunity to make observations and ask questions. 

The Leader thanked the Director for the inspired presentation which highlighted the guidance he was providing, and for the easy-to-read report which included real and wonderful examples of the work that is happening.  Furthermore, he noted that the statistics on the front page of the report were astonishing, but again highlighted the importance of the work, and he emphasised that the members were incredibly grateful to the committed staff who made miracles within tight budgets.

The Leader's gratitude was echoed by many other members, and the following matters were raised by individual members:-

Hope was expressed that the next Annual Report would include the protocol being developed by the Department at present on how to help people who suffer a fall and are unable to access an ambulance for hours. 

The work being done to ensure dignity and respect for young carers was welcomed and it was asked how many of them had received the ID card, and whether there was potential for this to be expanded?  In response, it was noted that it was likely that the vast majority of the 121 young carers who were in receipt of support were using the card, but that he would contact the member with the exact figure.

It was asked how much collaboration took place between the Council and the organisations that support people with mental health problems in the countryside, such as the DPJ Foundation and Tir Dewi.  In response, it was noted that he could not provide a definitive answer, but that he could get back to the member with the information. Nevertheless, it was confirmed that the Service attempted to work in partnership with any organisation that promoted mental health, particularly in the countryside.

Referring to paragraph 24 of the report, it was enquired what was the impact of the 9 social worker posts that were vacant at the beginning of January.  In response, it was noted that:

·           That the Council employed around 150 social workers and 30-40 occupational therapists, and that the exact figures could be provided for the member.

·           That the vacant posts created a challenge for the Service in terms of reaching people who demand a service and an assessment, but that this was managed to be done with the social workers, since we had no other option.

·           That all types of other things were going on in the background, such as the situation regarding training and the number of students who went on to train as social workers.

·           That it was a huge challenge to get students to go to Bangor University to follow the social  ...  view the full minutes text for item 8.

To submit the Scrutiny Annual Report.

To accept the report.

The Chair of the Scrutiny Forum, Councillor Beth Lawton, submitted the scrutiny annual report for 2022/23. She thanked the scrutiny chairs and vice-chairs and all scrutiny members for their work during the year. She also thanked the Service officers for supporting the members and drawing up the report.

Members were given an opportunity to make observations and ask questions. The following matters were raised by individual members:

It was asked whether there was a reference in the report to the Audit Wales inspection of the effectiveness of scrutiny in Gwynedd. In response, it was noted that the report was yet to be published, and that it would be available in early October.

It was noted that the Annual Report did not show the effectiveness of the scrutiny, i.e. how the observations of the scrutinisers on reports or draft strategic plans had influenced the final reports / strategic plans. It was questioned what the purpose of the Annual Report submitted was, and it was asked when the members would receive a report which genuinely looked at the effectiveness of the scrutiny.  In response, it was noted:-

·         That only one improvement proposal was being identified in the draft version of the Audit Wales report was this exact point, i.e. tracking the impact of the scrutiny that happens.

·         That it was proposed to conduct an internal review of scrutiny arrangements in the autumn. A draft timetable for conducting the review would be submitted to the Scrutiny Forum by the end of the month, and indeed, tracking the impact of scrutiny would also be a part of the consideration during this review.

As the Annual Report listed some of the comments made by members when discussing various matters, it was suggested that it would be sensible to use those comments as a starting point for the work of the following year, so that the departments could return in six months or a year with updates on the main matters raised by the scrutinisers the year before. In response, it was noted that:

·         Such comments were always helpful, and if the members had any different ideas on how to get better value from reports, the officers would indeed take those into account next year.

·         It was agreed that there was room for improvement, and that there was a need to make better use of the 'Matters arising from Overview and Scrutiny' standing item on the Cabinet meetings' agenda, and report back to the scrutiny committees on the outcome of the Cabinet's discussions.

It was noted that one got the feeling that the current scrutiny system had been created in order to keep the powers in one place, and although scrutinisers were free to discuss various issues, the link between those discussions and policy changes was not visible.  In response, it was noted that the new members on the Council had been able to add a great deal to the scrutiny system, and in the autumn, the members' ideas and comments could be gathered, as well  ...  view the full minutes text for item 9.

To submit the report of the Monitoring Officer.

To accept the report.

Submitted – the report of the Monitoring Officer detailing amendments to the Delegation Scheme approved by the Cabinet.

RESOLVED to accept the report.

To submit the report of the Head of Democracy Services.

To approve the absence of Councillor Eirwyn Williams from meetings of the Council for six months from this date because of personal circumstances, in accordance with Section 85 of the Local Government Act 1972, enabling him to continue to be a member of Cyngor Gwynedd.

Submitted - a report by the Head of Democracy Services requesting that the Council approve the absence of Councillor Eirwyn Williams from the authority's meetings due to ill-health, in order to enable him to continue to be a member according to his wish.

RESOLVED to approve the absence of Councillor Eirwyn Williams from meetings of the Council for six months from this date because of personal circumstances, in accordance with Section 85 of the Local Government Act 1972, enabling him to continue to be a member of Cyngor Gwynedd.

In accordance with the Notice of Motion received under Section 4.19 of the Constitution, Councillor Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn will propose as follows:-

“The Council calls on the Westminster Government to devolve powers over justice (the Courts, Prisons, the Police, the Probation Service and other associated powers) and create a Welsh Legal Jurisdiction.”

The Council calls on the Westminster Government to devolve powers over justice (the Courts, Prisons, the Police, the Probation Service and other associated powers) and create a Welsh Legal Jurisdiction.

Submitted - the following notice of motion by Councillor Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn in accordance with Section 4.20 of the Constitution, and it was seconded:-

The Council calls on Westminster Government to devolve powers over justice (the Courts, Prisons, the Police, the Probation Service and other associated powers) and create a Welsh Legal Jurisdiction.

The member set out the context to his motion, noting that:-

·         Wales is the only country with the ability to create legislation, but without its own legal authority, and that the complications that arise from this arrangement means that difficulties arise between the Senedd and Westminster, with the policies crossing on key matters, and the Senedd using its budget to pay for services it doesn't have power over, as well as expensive court cases.

·         That many negative changes had been regarding the legal system in Wales over the last ten years, with 23 crown / magistrate courts closing, which meant that more people had to travel further for justice, especially people living in rural communities and areas.  Also, cutting the legal support for people in need means that many were suffering from health and mental health problems from worrying about court cases, and this, with time, has led to more stress for the National Health Service. 

·         That devolving the powers over justice and creating a new system would mean that Wales could take a different route to develop a better legal service for the people of Wales. Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own legal authority, as well as the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey; even areas in England have more power over elements of the law than Wales. It is time for our nation to have the same powers to move forward in order to diminish the complicated situation that currently exists.

·         It was believed that it was important that the Councillors push these national matters for the benefit of the people of the country, and by bringing these matters before the Council, we start key discussions, that move our communities forward and create systems that work for us.

Many other members expressed support to the notice by noting:-

·         That this was a basic error in the way Wales was operating and that it was essential that our legal system reflects our values and who we are as Welsh people.

·         That we needed the power, not only over this, but everything, and that there was a need to look after ourselves as a country and get independence for Wales.

·         That the notice by Cyngor Gwynedd calling for independence over different systems / administrations was a certain and necessary step forward.

·         That it was not unusual, under the current arrangement, for court cases to be moved at short notice from the court in Caernarfon to Chester.

·         That we have the infrastructure, the courts, and so forth, in Wales, but that the old system was managing it all in England.

·         That the statistics prove that the justice system managed from Westminster was not working at all,  ...  view the full minutes text for item 13.

To submit, for information – Letter from Transport for Wales in response to Councillor Huw Rowlands’ notice of motion to the 1st December, 2022 Council meeting regarding improving train services in Gwynedd.

Submitted for information - a letter from the Welsh Government in response to the notice of motion by Councillor Huw Rowlands at the meeting on 1 December 2022, regarding improving the train services in Gwynedd.

The Chair noted that he appreciated the letter, but was disappointed at the length of time it had taken to receive a response.