Agenda, decisions and draft minutes

To receive apologies for absence.

Apologies were received from Councillor Arwyn Herald Roberts, Dewi Morgan (Head of Finance) and Dylan Owen (Statutory Director of Social Services).

To receive any declaration of personal interest.

Carys Edwards, in item 7 on the agenda (Internal Audit Output – Plas Pengwaith Home) because her mother was one of the residents of Plas Pengwaith. It was not a prejudicial interest as the subject was part of a wider report. She was not required to leave the meeting.

To note any items which are urgent business in the opinion of the Chairman so they may be considered.

DECISION:

Request to the Chair to discuss the concerns with the Head of Finance so that Committee Members can gain a better understanding of the Council's arrangements

a)    Concern about the high risks associated with legal challenges against the Council.

·       Reassurance was needed that there were robust systems in place to manage situations of high risk.

·       An update was needed on the Council's insurance arrangements and any risk that came under that arrangement.

·       There was a need to ensure, following receipt of the recommendations of the External Audit into the Council's safeguarding arrangements, that a detailed action plan was adopted as a means of avoiding any future risks and costs.

b)    It was highlighted that two vacant seats remained on the Committee.

RESOLVED:

To request that the Chair discusses the concerns with the Head of Finance so that Committee Members can gain a better understanding of the Council's arrangements.

The Chairman shall propose that the minutes of the meeting of this committee, held on the 5^th of September 2024, be signed as a true record.

The Chair accepted the minutes of the previous meeting of this committee, held on 5 September 2024, as a true record.

To consider the report and offer comments.

DECISION:

To accept the contents of the report.

A report was submitted providing an outline of how the Council's departments had responded to the decisions of the Governance and Audit Committee so that Members could be assured that their decisions were being addressed. It was noted that the report gave Members an opportunity to consider the decisions made with the intention of removing the item / decision when the action had been completed.

RESOLVED

To accept the contents of the report.

To consider and accept the report

DECISION:

·       To accept the contents of the report.

·       Submit an update on the recommendations in 12 months' time.

Alan Hughes, Fflur Jones, Yvonne Thomas (Audit Wales), Aled Davies and Dewi Wyn Jones ⁠were welcomed to the meeting.

A report by Audit Wales was presented, which referred to an audit issued in February 2024 to identify whether the NHS bodies and Local Authorities had proper arrangements in place to secure the efficient, effective, and economical use of resources in managing the flow of patients out of hospital in the North Wales Region.

It was reported that the discharge of patients from hospitals was a national problem, mainly because the complexity of the demand had increased. Consequently, this created problems such as a reduction in the number of beds available, putting a strain on the service. It was reiterated that a workforce shortage, and deficiencies in the processes for discharge and sharing information added to the challenges. It was noted that there was strong commitment by the Partnerships to try and improve the situation and that the region's response to the recommendations had been positive.

Aled Davies (Head of Adults, Health and Well-being Department) presented the organisation's response to the recommendations for the Committee to consider. He noted that the work and findings of Audit Wales had been welcomed, and that the response was a collective response by organisations across the region, with Cyngor Gwynedd playing a key role in the process of patients' discharge from hospital. He added that the region recognised and identified the improvements that needed to be implemented to ensure support for patients after returning home, and that Gwynedd would make every effort to work with all the partnerships to respond to those challenges. He also noted that many of the issues aligned with the priorities of Cyngor Gwynedd.

Matters arising from the ensuing discussion:

·       Despite the joint-working with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board (BCUHB), the situation was not improving; it was a critical situation. Need to see examples of good cooperation.

·       The BCUHB area was too large – the processes were not fit for purpose for all areas within the region.

·       There was a need to hold more discussions between BCUHC, the Local Authorities and Partnerships.

·       The Labour Party had ambitious plans to repair the National Health Service (NHS) – was there scope here to engage with Central Government in London?

·       Patient discharge from hospital was a long-standing problem – we need to focus on what Gwynedd can do to improve the situation.

·       A population breakdown would have been useful as part of the report – setting out the context of the areas within the region.

·       BCUHB was often in special measures – this was not an easy problem to solve.

·       The percentage 'waiting for a new domiciliary care package to begin' was high – it was hoped that the Service was looking at this.

·       A shortage of beds and  ...  view the full minutes text for item 6.

To accept this report on the work of the Internal Audit Section in the period from 1 April 2024 to 30 September 2024, comment on the contents in accordance with members’ wishes, and support the actions agreed with the relevant service managers. 

DECISION:

·       To accept the report

·       Findings of the Residential Homes (Plas Pengwaith, Llys Cadfan and Plas Hafan) Services Audits to be referred to the Management Improvement Group.

Carys Edwards, Rhys Parry, Cllr Angela Russell, Cllr Meryl Roberts and Cllr Ioan Thomas were nominated as members for the Management Improvement Group with an invitation to Cllr Beth Lawton (Chair of the Care Scrutiny Committee) and Cllr Dewi Jones (Vice Chair of the Care Scrutiny Committee) to observe. Should issues arise from the Management Improvement Group that require further attention, they would be referred to the Care Scrutiny Committee.

Note:

Freedom of Information Requests Audit – a request to consider that the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 are addressed by the Committee – the Committee to receive an annual report setting out the Council's Arrangements to deal with Freedom of Information matters.

Submitted, for information, the report of the Audit Manager updating the Committee on the internal audit work for the period from 1 April 2024 until 30 September 2024. It was highlighted that 11 of the audits in the operational plan had been completed and given an assurance level of high; satisfactory or limited.

Each audit was referred to in turn. Matters arising from the ensuing discussion:

·       Car Parks (Environment)

-        The use of pay machines – was there a smart phone option?

-        Phone only machines created a problem for older people.

In response, the Audit Manager stated that the Service had to consider the risks attached to only using coin machines and also accepted the barriers faced by older people – it was difficult to get the balance right. She added that a combination of payments methods were currently being used.

·       Freedom of Information Requests

-        Concern that the audit had only reached a limited assurance level.

-        Need assurance that information was not restricted; need to be transparent.

-        Did the result of the sample highlight a deficiency in the information issued, or that there was a legal reason for not providing the information 'correctly'?

In response, the Audit Manager confirmed that the rejected requests in the audit sample had been rejected for legal reasons, therefore the Council had fully complied with the requirements of the Act. It was reiterated that the assurance level hinged between 'satisfactory' and 'limited', and following a discussion with the team, a limited assurance level was agreed because Gwynedd’s performance statistics on the punctuality rate were 77%, which was slightly lower than those of the United Kingdom Government.

In response to the failure to reach the target and to a supplementary question on whether the matter should be referred to the Governance Group, the Audit Manager stated that the matter was being monitored by the Performance Challenge Group of the Corporate Support Department, although the staff relied on all Council departments participating to provide the information.

As the matter dealt with a Council-wide situation, consideration was given to whether the Committee should receive an annual report setting out the Council's arrangements for dealing with Freedom of Information matters in the same way that the Council's arrangements for dealing with Complaints matters were presented to the Committee.

·       Residential Care Homes of Plas Pengwaith, Llys Cadfan and Plas Hafan

-        The report did not reflect good levels of assurance in the Residential Care Homes – there was a pattern here.

-        A suggestion to refer the matter to the Care Scrutiny Committee to look at the issues in greater detail and consider a solution to the lack of management issues.

-        A further suggestion to refer the matter to the Controls Improvement Group as there were some basic issues here – a pattern that had existed for years now.

-        There was a need to consider whether there were adequate arrangements / adequate support for the Managers.

Cllr Beth Lawton (Chair of the Care Scrutiny  ...  view the full minutes text for item 7.

To note the contents of this report as an update on progress against the 2024/25 audit plan, offer comments thereon and accept the report.

DECISION:

To accept the report.

Submitted, for information – a report by the Audit Manager updating the Committee on the current situation in terms of completing the Internal Audit Plan 2024/25.  She referred to the status of the work and the time spent on each audit. She highlighted that up until 27 September 2024, 11 out of the 45 individual audits in the plan had been released in a final version or had been closed, which represented 24% of the plan.

She referred to amendments that had been made to the Plan as a result of annual leave, sickness, training, management and meetings, adding that further audits had been added which meant it was inevitable that some changes had to be made to the Plan.

It was noted, that in accordance with best practice and the Public Sector Internal Audit Standards, the Internal Audit Plan was subject to continuous review to ensure that it remained up to date and reflected changes in the business, determining the plan's priorities based on risk or a request from a Head of Department.

The members thanked the officer for the report.

RESOLVED:

To accept the report

To note the position and the relevant risks regarding the Savings Overview, consider the decisions for the Cabinet and comment as necessary.

DECISION:

To accept the report and note the situation and relevant risks in the context of the Savings Overview.

Note:

Draw up a table in future that differentiates between the historical situation and the latest situation so that it is possible to identify risks for the current situation.

Submitted – the report of the Cabinet Member for Finance requesting that the Committee notes the position and relevant risks in respect of the Savings Overview, considers the decisions for the Cabinet (15-10-2024) and provides comment as necessary. It was noted that the report highlighted the position up until the end of August 2024.

It was highlighted that to close the funding gap this year, it was necessary to implement £5.6 million worth of savings during 2024/25; this was a combination of £3.6 million that had previously been approved in February 2023, and new savings approved in February 2024 worth £2 million.

It was reported, over the past few years, as had been consistently reported to the Committee, that there had been difficulties in realising savings in areas in the Adults, Health and Well-being Department and the Waste field, therefore £2 million worth of schemes where there were significant risks to their delivery had been scrapped during 2023/24.

⁠He drew attention to the new savings and also the savings that had been approved previously, such as historical savings schemes for the period from the 2015/16 financial year up until the 2024/25 financial year.  He highlighted the fact that 98%, which was over £33.7 million of the £34.3 million of savings, had now been realised.

In the context of the new savings schemes worth £12 million, it was reported that 65% of the savings had already been realised with a further 8% on track to be delivered on time. Nonetheless, he indicated that there were clear risks to delivering the savings in some fields, such as the Adults, Health and Well-being Department and the Environment Department.

⁠He referred to the value of those savings that had already been approved for 2025/26 onwards, and noted that further savings schemes and cuts for 2025/26 were already under consideration by Cyngor Gwynedd – these would be the subject of a further report.

⁠In summarising the situation, it was reported that £41.7 million of savings had been realised (90% of the required £46.6 million over the period) and a further 2% was forecast to be realised by the end of the financial year (although there was a delay and some risks to delivering the remaining schemes).

The Cabinet Member was thanked for the report.

            Matters arising from the ensuing discussion:

·       There was a risk attached to not delivering the savings and also from delivering them.

·       The report portrayed a good situation over the past 10 years, but we now needed to focus on the more recent years which of course portrayed a picture of failing to achieve savings as the situation was becoming more difficult – a suggestion to draw up a table that distinguished between historical and current savings.

·       Were the departments confident that they would be able to achieve the 2024/25 savings?

·       Concern that some savings were slipping yearly.

·       There was a need to look at services' culture and arrangements – consider alternative ways of budgeting rather than 'chipping into' or using  ...  view the full minutes text for item 9.

To note the position and any risks regarding the Council’s capital programme, scrutinise the decisions for the Cabinet, and comment as necessary.

DECISION:

To accept the report and note the situation and risks in the context of the Council's capital programme

Submitted – a report by the Cabinet Member for Finance outlining the capital programme (end of August 2024 position) and also approving the relevant funding sources. The Committee was asked to scrutinise the information and offer comments before submitting the report for the Cabinet's approval on 15 October 2024.

He referred to a breakdown per Department of the £169.8 million capital programme for the 3 years from 2024/25 - 2026/27, as well as the sources available to fund the net increase of £51.6 million since the opening budget, with £33 million of this originating from re-profiling at the end of the previous year.

He reiterated that,

·       There were firm plans in place to invest £117 million in 2024/25 on capital schemes, with £48.8 million (42%) of it being financed by attracting specific grants.

·       An additional £17.2 million of proposed expenditure had been re-profiled from 2024/25 to 2025/26 and 2026/27.

·       The main schemes that had slipped since the original budget included £4.1 million for Schools Schemes (Sustainable Learning Communities and Others), £3.1 million in Levelling-up Fund schemes, £2.7 million of Economic Boost and Industrial Units schemes, £2.5 million in Carbon Management and Solar Panels schemes, £1.2 million for the Penygroes Health and Care Hub scheme and £1.1 million Residential Establishments schemes.

Attention was drawn to the list of additional grants that the Council had managed to attract since the last review which included the Sustainable Learning Communities Grant – Schools Community Use grant, Grants from the Local Transport Fund (LTF) and Active Travel Fund (ATF) from the Welsh Government for several different schemes, a Care Homes Fund grant for children's homes from the Welsh Government and the Schools Maintenance Grant 2024/25.

He referred to the information about the Council's Capital Prudential Indicators and highlighted that, in accordance with the CIPFA Prudential Code, the Council was obliged to report the information - he added that the Council had complied in full with the policy on borrowing for capital purposes.

The members gave thanks for the report.

In response to a question regarding an increase of £370,000 in the use of borrowing and how confident was the decision to support this, the Cabinet Member stated that the loan was for renewing the Environment Department's vehicles fleet as a means of achieving net-zero duties (of using electric vehicles rather than diesel). Although a substantial amount, it was an acceptable borrowing.

In response to a comment that the expenditure programme had to be re-profiled in response to the loss of a Welsh Government grant, reference was made to the rationale and justification for the recommendations, noting again that

·       an additional £17.2m of proposed expenditure had been re-profiled from 2024/25 to 2025/26 and 2026/27, but no loss of funding had been caused to the Council where schemes had slipped.

RESOLVED

To accept the report and note the situation and risks in the context of the Council's capital programme.

To note the situation and the relevant risks regarding the budgets of the Council and its departments, consider the decisions for the Cabinet and comment as necessary.

DECISION:

·       To accept the report and note the situation and relevant risks in the context of the Council's budgets and its departments

·       To agree with the recommendation to the Cabinet:

·        Transfer £1,868k of underspend on corporate budgets to the Council's
Financial Strategy Reserve.

Note:

Work that has been commissioned by the Chief Executive to gain a better understanding of exceptional overspending by the Adults Health and Well-being Department: a request for the Cabinet to challenge the timescale of this work - assurance needed that this work is in place to set a budget.

Submitted – a report by the Cabinet Member for Finance, detailing the latest review of the Council's revenue budget for 2024/25, and the projections towards the end of the financial year. The Committee was asked to scrutinise the information and offer comments before submitting the report for the Cabinet's approval on 15 October 2024.

The Cabinet Member set out the context to the report, noting the following:-

·       The situation was not unique to Gwynedd.

·       Although Gwynedd's reserves had historically been strong, they were emptying quickly

·       This was a case of underfunding, and not a lack of financial management

·       Every effort was being made to reduce the impact on the residents of Gwynedd

He added that the Finance Officers merely reported on the situation, and that the Departments themselves were responsible for their budgets.

He referred to a breakdown of the final position of all the departments and reported that, following the end of August review, the projections suggested that there would be an overspend of £7.6 million and that six of the departments will have overspent by the end of the year. Significant overspends were anticipated for the Adults, Health and Well-being Department, the Children and Families Department, the Highways, Engineering and YGC Department and the Environment Department.

The main issues:

-        Adults, Health and Well-being Department – the Department received a permanent additional budget allocation of over £3.2 million this year to meet pressures in various areas; the latest forecasts suggested there will be a £2.7 million overspend by the end of the year (compared to £3.9 million in 2023/24). The overspend was the result of a combination of several factors which included increased pressure on the home care provision, the other main issues included direct payments which was overspending by £1.3 million in the older people's service, and supported accommodation in the learning disability service. The Chief Executive had commissioned work last year to look at the department's finances.

-        Children and Families Department – the department's financial situation had deteriorated significantly since the 2023/24 position when an overspend of £2.6 million had been reported; now increased to £3.2 million; primarily as a result of an increase in the costs of out-of-county placements. The department had seen the complexity of packages increasing, and recent increasing use of unregistered placements. As a result of the exceptional overspending by the Children and Families Department, the Chief Executive had commissioned work to explain the details in the area of Childcare, so as to obtain a better understanding of the issues and a clear programme of response. The work would be led by the Statutory Director of Social Services.

-        Education Department – Following a £1.5 million overspend in the 2023/24 financial year on school transport, the field received an additional budget allocation this year of £896k on a permanent basis and a further £896k for just one year, to address the pressure on the school buses and taxis following the re-tendering of contracts, therefore a balanced financial position was reported.

-  ...  view the full minutes text for item 11.

To consider and receive the report for information.

DECISION:

To accept the report for information

Submitted – a report by the Investment Manager reporting on the actual results of the Council's treasury management during 2023/24 until 30 June 2024, against the Treasury Management Strategy for 2024/25 as approved by the Full Council in March 2024. It was noted that the strategy required the Investment Manager to report on treasury management prudential indicators every quarter with a review of the full financial year to also be submitted to the Committee when timely.

It was reported that the year had been a very busy and prosperous year for the Council's treasury management activity, with the funds having been kept safe and interest rates having been high and generated substantial interest income.

On 30 June 2024, the Council was in a very strong position with net investments due to the high level of investments and operational capital. This included the funds of the Ambition Board and the Pension Fund.  It was noted that there had been no significant movement in the level of loans in the last 3 months; the Council continued with the strategy of using internal resources before borrowing externally. It was added that the Council invested in banks and building societies, local authorities, money market funds, the debt management office and pooled funds, which were consistent with the kind of investments that had been made by the Council for a number of years now. It was reported that the underlying bank rate had been 5.25% in the period where returns had been high.

It was noted that all activities had fully complied with the CIPFA code of practice and the Council's Treasury Management which was good news and evidenced firm control over the finances. The Liability Benchmark was pointed out, noting that it was an important tool to establish whether the Council was likely to be a long-term borrower or long-term investor in the future, and therefore shaped the strategic focus and refined decision-making. It was indicated that the Council expected to remain above its benchmark up to 2025 because the Council held reserves, and the cash flow to date had been below the assumptions made when the money had been borrowed.

Looking to the future, it was noted that based on current projections, long-term borrowing was not necessary, but may be necessary in the short term in the near future.

The members thanked the officer for the report.

RESOLVED:

To accept the report for information.

That the Committee nominates one councillor to serve on the Governance & Audit Sub Committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee and one councillor to act as a substitute for that member.

That the Committee decides whether it wishes to nominate a Lay Member to the Governance & Audit Sub Committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee.

DECISION

·       Nominate Councillor Ioan Thomas to serve on the Governance and Audit Sub-committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee.

·       Nominate Councillor Richard Glyn to act as deputy to serve on the Governance and Audit Sub-committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee.

·       Nominate Carys Edwards (Chair of Gwynedd's Governance and Audit Committee) for consideration to serve on the Governance and Audit Sub-Committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee.

Submitted – a report by the Democracy and Language Manager stating that, in accordance with the provisions of the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 ('the 2021 Act') the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee 2021 was required to create its own Audit and Governance Committee. It was explained that the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee had now decided to create a Governance Sub-Committee with the membership to include six Councillors (one from each of the Constituent Councils) and three lay members.

It was reiterated that it was the wish of the Governance and Audit Sub-Committee to appoint members of the existing Governance and Audit Committees of the Constituent Councils and for each of the Constituent Councils to nominate a Councillor from its own Governance and Audit Committee as its principal nominee along with a second Councillor to act as a deputy (to ensure a quorum when the principal nominee was unavailable). Those Constituent Councils were required, if they wished, to also nominate a lay member for consideration to serve on the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee's Governance and Audit Sub-Committee.

DECISION

·       To nominate Councillor Ioan Thomas to serve on the Governance and Audit Sub-Committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee.

·       To nominate Councillor Richard Glyn to act as deputy to serve on the Governance and Audit Sub-committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee.

·       To nominate Carys Edwards (Chair of Gwynedd's Governance and Audit Committee) for consideration to serve on the Governance and Audit Sub-Committee of the North Wales Corporate Joint Committee.

To consider the work programme

DECISION:

Accept the Work Programme for November 2024 - October 2025

Submitted – a forward programme of items for the Committee's meetings until October 2025.

DECISION:                                                                                 

To accept the Work Programme for November 2024 – October 2025.